Transcript:
00:00:07 Cabot Institute
Welcome to Cabot conversations produced by the Cabot Institute for the Environment at the University of Bristol.
00:00:13 Cabot Institute
We are a diverse community of 600 experts united by a common cause protecting our environment and identifying ways of living better with our changing planet. This podcast series brings together our experts and collaborators to discuss complex environmental challenges and solutions to climate change.
00:00:32 Cabot Institute
In this episode, Doctor Alex Dietzel and Zakiya Mackenzie discuss why environmental justice matters for all.
00:00:39 Cabot Institute
You can find out more about the Cabot Institute for the environment at bristol.ac.uk/cabot.
00:00:51 Dr Alix Dietzel
Hi. I’m doctor Alix Dietzel and I’m a climate change policy and climate justice scholar. I work at the University of Bristol at space and my main focus in my research is to figure out how just the response to climate change is whether we’re making fair and good decisions.
00:01:09 Dr Alix Dietzel
And I study climate policy all the way from the global level down to the local level.
00:01:14 Zakiya Mackenzie
Bristol hi. My name is Zakiya Mackenzie. I am a Bristol Black and green ambassador and currently a nature writer as well. Black and Green program is very much concerned with injecting ideas from diverse communities into the green conversation and the conversation around climate change and.
00:01:34 Zakiya Mackenzie
Climate justice we are a group that kind of advocates for more black voices, more UM, Asian and minority voices in the conversations that we have, that that instruct policy on what happens with the environment.
00:01:49 Dr Alix Dietzel
That’s great. So it’s really nice to speak with you today. I wondered whether you could tell me a bit more about your work and what.
00:01:56 Dr Alix Dietzel
It.
00:01:56 Zakiya Mackenzie
Focuses on yeah, so I am what’s called a black and green ambassador in Bristol. Or I went through a program called a black and green ambassadorship program. I’m now an alumni of the program and.
00:02:09 Zakiya Mackenzie
Black and Green came about in response to the 2015 Green Capital year, where you Bristol was, you know, Green Cap.
00:02:19 Zakiya Mackenzie
All of Europe and we from Ujima radio, which is the, you know, the volunteer organization as I was a part of, decided to kind of highlight diverse communities and the activities that they have been doing that we have been doing in terms of environmental sustainability and also talking about long tradition. So not just.
00:02:40 Zakiya Mackenzie
Things in response to climate change, but also highlighting some of the sustainable practices and decisions that have been made for a long time.
00:02:50 Dr Alix Dietzel
That’s great. And and what do you think was the most interesting thing?
00:02:53 Dr Alix Dietzel
You found about those practices.
00:02:56 Zakiya Mackenzie
I think it, you know, the most interesting thing was that they were there and we have suppose in in where we are now we kind of ignore quite a lot of it and many times repackage it as this sustainable thing. But I was very surprised to learn a lot of what had been done before that we’re continuing to do now.
00:03:17 Zakiya Mackenzie
And I’m almost needing to do it a lot more and for for protection of the environment. And so it was really, you know, that was really one of the eye opening things for me was just to recognize how.
00:03:28 Zakiya Mackenzie
For many cultures and and traditional practices were there that if we if we were thinking along those terms, we would have cut sustainable or environmentally friendly and such.
00:03:40 Dr Alix Dietzel
Yeah, that sounds really important. And I know black and green is continuing now and there’s new ambassadors. So do you get involved with training them and telling them about your experiences or do they just kind of start fresh?
00:03:52 Dr Alix Dietzel
Option.
00:03:54 Dr Alix Dietzel
And set their own agendas for what they’d like.
00:03:55 Zakiya Mackenzie
To do no absolutely. I get involved with the new ambassadors. We had a workshop yesterday. I kind of writing and storytelling workshop to kind of help them along in telling their stories. So no, it’s, you know, it’s one of the best things I think that could ever happen because my group, which was just myself and.
00:04:14 Zakiya Mackenzie
Jasmine Katiba Foley. We were really just a pilot group. You know, we were just the the test group.
00:04:20 Zakiya Mackenzie
And so I’m really, really, really happy that I suppose we were we there was a potential enough seed in in what we did that we have like 3 absolutely great new ambassadors. Asia, Roy and Olivia and three different areas of of of of you know environmental concern within Bristol and be a great program for the things that they come and.
00:04:40 Zakiya Mackenzie
Kind of looking at topics like air pollution, looking at how we use the green spaces in urban centers so you know where inner city urban centers, how is it that we make the most of?
00:04:50 Zakiya Mackenzie
Our parks and our green spaces and also again looking at these you know at the same time recognizing that communities hold a lot of knowledge. And so we have a project that Asia’s project will be about looking at cultural heritage and ideas of environmental environment sustainability.
00:05:10 Zakiya Mackenzie
New new ideas as well of climate change and and and how we how different communities specifically in this case, the Somali community, East African communities in Bristol approach these topics. So I mean.
00:05:24 Zakiya Mackenzie
It’s a great project just for the fact that we it offers a sort of leadership and understanding of of of the world in terms of the the green spaces, the environmental spaces and you know, you ask if I am training them, but we we get training from other organizations such as your, your own, you know we start with.
00:05:46 Zakiya Mackenzie
Hearing from the University of Bristol, we we, you know, we spoke to policy, Bristol. We spoke to the Cabot Institute, which is a science organization. So we we were able as ourselves, not scientists, but needing to understand that to be able to follow the discussions right. And so it’s a great project and that it’s it’s it’s rounded.
00:06:06 Zakiya Mackenzie
And it brings us from our home communities what’s happening on the ground, but also connects us with how that fits into policy change and and what happens, you know, big, big picture, while we’re the kind of small small groups that feed into that.
00:06:21 Dr Alix Dietzel
Yeah.
00:06:23 Dr Alix Dietzel
I completely agree, and I think Community knowledge is so important and including voices, you know from all sectors of society, and especially those that are often silenced or or not listened to, you know, are ignored. So I think black and green is such an incredible project and I’m actually doing some research about the city of Bristol and like how they’re responding to climate change.
00:06:44 Dr Alix Dietzel
Because I was really inspired by the one city plan when I read it and and especially about this promise for just transition for everyone and it’s inclusive and.
00:06:56 Dr Alix Dietzel
Fair. You know, as a justice scholar, I was just like, wow, this is incredible because I’m used to studying the global level of politics where the rhetoric is so vague and ambiguous, you know, because you have to get every country in the world to agree to every line and the and the climate agreements, which usually results in quite vague promises. So to see this, like, kind of.
00:07:17 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know, language in a climate policy document was really interesting. So I decided with my research partner, Doctor Alice van and the law school at Exeter, we applied for the Cabot in at Cabot Institute Innovation Fund and got some funding to do a little bit of field work in the City of Bristol, which is really exciting.
00:07:37 Dr Alix Dietzel
Because I’m a political theorist, so usually I don’t talk to anybody. I just read things. So I’ve been interviewing.
00:07:44 Dr Alix Dietzel
And sub what I call sub state actors in Bristol organizations like the Bristol Advisory Committee on Climate Change, which I’m actually a part of myself, black and greens. I’m going to be interviewing Olivia in.
00:07:55 Dr Alix Dietzel
A few weeks.
00:07:56 Dr Alix Dietzel
Which is really exciting and I’m also doing some observations. So like I could watch Olivia in action at an event and and see, you know.
00:08:04 Dr Alix Dietzel
What? What is the role of a black and green ambassador and like, how, how are decisions affected by this project being in place? And yeah, it’s it’s really exciting.
00:08:14 Dr Alix Dietzel
Time and so that’s been really great. It’s it’s nice to hear that you’ve been working with the Cabot Institute as well, although I would say it’s also social scientists, not just.
00:08:24 Dr Alix Dietzel
Scientists but the government?
00:08:25 Zakiya Mackenzie
Yeah, you’re absolutely right, yeah.
00:08:28 Dr Alix Dietzel
They they, I think the Cabot Institute is very careful to try and include social science as well. And history and art. And you know everything because.
00:08:39 Dr Alix Dietzel
It’s such a climate change is such a complex issue. You need all these different kinds of perspectives and scholars working in different areas to understand it, you know.
00:08:47 Zakiya Mackenzie
Right. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I mentioned the scientist because that’s what I don’t have. So I you know, I I’m a bit of a social scientist myself in terms of my my work previous to kind of getting involved in, in, in this part of of our advice.
00:09:03 Zakiya Mackenzie
Let’s see. And So what the client, what the Cabot Institute has offered? I think for me personally. And Jasmine actually will have a very different kind of idea of what the Cabot offered her in terms of giving us kind of support. But for me, it was understand it really was understanding what is, like, carbon net zero.
00:09:23 Zakiya Mackenzie
It really was understanding that type of big picture thing that at some point I think we are trying to feed into uh, you know we are.
00:09:33 Zakiya Mackenzie
And but you’re you’re you’re absolutely right. I think some of the other things that the Cabot Institute has done, I mean, in terms of the murals that have come out of their conversations about uncertainty and and the conversations that come through through other, you know, other media, other mediums of of things, it’s definitely.
00:09:53 Zakiya Mackenzie
So I think the messaging has to be anyways.
00:09:56 Zakiya Mackenzie
If we’re trying to get people across all walks of life, all interests involved and interested or advocating for climate protections, yeah. So I think, you know, it’s it’s and I I sometimes feel like I’m all over the place because I have the creative bit, a little bit of.
00:10:16 Zakiya Mackenzie
Justice advocacy work, as opposed through black and green and also.
00:10:21 Zakiya Mackenzie
Having to research leg on the other side, but actually you know I’m I’m happy to be able to step back and look from different positions. I think and and and it can it I’m seeing it as an asset now whereas before it might have seen like what’s my direction but actually you know through through all of my practice.
00:10:41 Zakiya Mackenzie
And especially the creative one, it’s very much influenced by what I’ve learned from from, you know, from the kind of real life social things that happen. And and then I can inject a bit of the creativity and a bit of dreaming and into it.
00:10:59 Dr Alix Dietzel
Yeah, I think that’s so important. And I think you know conversations I’ve had with scientists who I’ve been able to meet because of the Cabot Institute, you know, which create networks between people working on different areas of climate change and have met IPCC scientists, which I thought was like, so exciting because I’ve been reading their work for years. But what I found talking to them was that they.
00:11:21 Dr Alix Dietzel
They’re frustrated because they think, you know, we we have the evidence.
00:11:24 Dr Alix Dietzel
It’s like, why is nothing happening and that’s where you know, research about policy comes in. That’s where art comes in. That’s where, like, research on social movements comes in history, all the stuff to understand how humans operate and and what affects their decision making and also like, what historical ties we have to one another.
00:11:44 Dr Alix Dietzel
And how that might influence global policy? You know, even looking at colonialism and how that’s affected relationships between the global north and the global South and.
00:11:53 Dr Alix Dietzel
Erased voices and created, you know, inequality, not just in terms of climate justice, but so many inequalities around the world. So I think it’s interesting because when you meet scientists, it’s it’s almost they’re like.
00:12:06 Dr Alix Dietzel
They’re bit like, well, but we’ve told you for 30 years, you know, this is what’s happening. Why has nobody done anything? And and you have to kind of say, you know, people are not robots. You can’t you can’t feed them information. And then they make good decisions. You know, I if only. So I think it’s more and more appreciated that we need different voices and different perspectives to understand.
00:12:27 Dr Alix Dietzel
Climate justice to understand climate policy, to understand decision making.
00:12:31 Dr Alix Dietzel
So I find that and all of a sudden, you know, after 10 years of studying climate justice, it’s it’s become interesting and and exciting and public, you know, with the with school children running around chanting, we want climate justice now. I mean, it’s incredible.
00:12:47 Dr Alix Dietzel
So I feel very happy that all of a sudden thinking about justice.
00:12:52 Dr Alix Dietzel
Is, is is valuable to society and not just to my small academic bubble of other climate justice scholars? You know, so that is so rewarding.
00:13:00 Zakiya Mackenzie
Right. I mean, I would add that in, in, in terms of advocating for the environment from also in minority groups, you know it was a fringe thing as well, but it was always there. So you know, I would, I would say like in I grew up in Jamaica and growing up in Jamaica, you know we’re out, we outdoors.
00:13:21 Zakiya Mackenzie
All the time. We’re very close to the environment. So we we we have a certain kind of connection and understanding of it.
00:13:26 Zakiya Mackenzie
But you know a group of we would have always had or we would have grown up knowing that rest of Arians are kind of like stewards of nature and are always advocating for nature and for environmental practices or living close to the earth or environmental justice. And I mean, you know, these are there’s a way where we had.
00:13:47 Zakiya Mackenzie
Like I said this.
00:13:48 Zakiya Mackenzie
Was fringe as you’re you know.
00:13:50 Zakiya Mackenzie
As I suppose it.
00:13:50 Zakiya Mackenzie
Was with with you as well.
00:13:52 Zakiya Mackenzie
I know that a lot of this is mainstream. I think one of the things I I’m a bit bitter about is that we forget that these were actually a lot of these communities were already considering these things. We might not have had the names, sustainable practice, climate policy. We might not have had the names, but we have the connection.
00:14:12 Zakiya Mackenzie
To the earth or the sea or whatever it was, the farm, whatever it was, that we we were involved.
00:14:19 Zakiya Mackenzie
And I I feel like some of that is is being forgotten because now we’re we we know where we’re heading and what or you know we know what we need to do and we’re forgetting.
00:14:28 Zakiya Mackenzie
That a lot.
00:14:28 Zakiya Mackenzie
Of the knowledge is has already been, is is held and we’re not going into.
00:14:32 Zakiya Mackenzie
Those places for the knowledge.
00:14:34 Dr Alix Dietzel
I agree. I think you know there’s some. There’s some very striking statistics about indigenous populations and the amount of land they actually protect around the world and how important that protection is.
00:14:45 Dr Alix Dietzel
And their knowledge is, and the history of that area and how much they know about it. And it is such a shame and a real like hindrance. I think the climate policy to not include those voices and ask them, you know, what can we do to protect nature and.
00:14:59 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know, I I agree with you. I I grew up in Austria and we’re very exactly the same. Like very outdoorsy climbing mountains, you know, growing things like very green. We haven’t had plastic shopping bags, you know, in decades, things like that. Like, it’s a very environmentalist.
00:15:17 Dr Alix Dietzel
Country as well, I suppose, because we have such beautiful nature. So I agree. I think you know these these voices have been there for centuries and and and know a lot about how to use land properly and to be in tune with nature and to respect nature. You know more than we do in these mainstream.
00:15:38 Dr Alix Dietzel
Mainly Western decision making platforms. So yeah, I I am completely agree with you.
00:15:45 Dr Alix Dietzel
So what do you think about Bristol then as a city? Do you think it’s like a unique place to be working in this space? Do you think there’s something kind of special about Bristol?
00:15:56 Zakiya Mackenzie
Bristol is, I think it’s definitely a special place for me because of that kind of energy, though it’s, you know, it’s it’s a Bursa likes to tantalize. I suppose we’re still likes to kind of.
00:16:08 Zakiya Mackenzie
Right. And I think there there’s a point where you’ll kind of where I believe that you have to agitate at some point or and and I I don’t mean it in any way like antagonistic, but I think you have to be critical of things that happened before we recognize that actually we might be able to do better than that. And I think we’re still is a place where that happens where people are.
00:16:29 Zakiya Mackenzie
You know, always on on, on, you know, on top of the mayor, the Council, whatever it is, the whatever local happening. I think Bristol is a place where people stay in.
00:16:40 Zakiya Mackenzie
Tested and will speak up. You know, I like. I really love that about Russell. People here is what I would say. It’s rude, you know, in Jamaica we call them feisty. Feisty, right? They, they they just don’t care. They will tell you what it is. And but I think you need a level of that before we get to the point where we actually stop and and and be reflective reflexive and say wait actually.
00:17:01 Zakiya Mackenzie
We can do better. We we can have a little bit of. We can try, we can have a better output and and that’s you know, that’s what I think I my work is all about is is better quality of life for more people is having better circumstances for more.
00:17:17 Zakiya Mackenzie
People and whistle is one place I’ve come to have recognized that a lot of people share that idea and will go for it. And I suppose in a way that I am comfortable with. And so I, you know, I love this city and I almost once I moved to Bristol, it was almost impossible for me to not get involved somehow in some kind of community.
00:17:38 Zakiya Mackenzie
Something just because it it was there and open and I had a bit of an interest, a bit of a skill. I tried it, it worked. And you know, I’ve I’ve stuck with it and I think that’s another thing with Russell is that people get involved with things and and they stick it out.
00:17:54 Zakiya Mackenzie
Again, I don’t know if that’s the camaraderie or just the energy in the city, but you know, when I came to Bristol, you know, about six years ago, I remember the campaign for the reparations motion to be called for the City Council to call that there should be an inquiry into into Bristol’s involvement in in the slave trade. And, you know, there was a council.
00:18:13 Zakiya Mackenzie
Approval of that. So I think it’s a place where you actually see results on and and I mean reparations is another thing that maybe 10-15 years ago it was a fringe thing that you know you’d have again the same kind of RASTA community, but it would.
00:18:28 Zakiya Mackenzie
Almost be ridiculed.
00:18:29 Zakiya Mackenzie
Right. And Bristol is a city that you come to. No, no one is thinking it’s ridiculous anymore. And I’m sure you’re gonna have other cities that are doing it. Same thing with, you know, declaring a climate emergency. I think Bristol is a place that just set the trend, you know, and Bristol sets the trends. And so it’s a place where I love to be to, to work. And I I I really think black and green.
00:18:51 Zakiya Mackenzie
It will be a part of that.
00:18:54 Dr Alix Dietzel
Yeah, I totally agree. I I came to Bristol in 2015. It was my first. All but out of my PhD. I was on like a nine month teaching assistant contract. You know, like very typical. So I wasn’t sure whether I would be staying, but I just.
00:19:10 Dr Alix Dietzel
Fell in love with the city and the university, and I had the same like I got the same vibe. You know that this was like a city full of energy, full of impetus, full of like.
00:19:20 Dr Alix Dietzel
Agitation like you say, you know radical action. Like I remember my friend did her masters here during the Tesco riot and you know, like sending me pictures of like people sending Tesco on fire because they didn’t want it. You know it’s that’s like the image I have of crystal. And then of course last year is tearing down the Colston statue and throwing him in the river.
00:19:40 Dr Alix Dietzel
I mean.
00:19:41 Dr Alix Dietzel
Brilliant. So yeah, I get the same sense and like the university as well, you know, remember, I am. I just started my job and I found the Cabot Institute just through, like, searching what the university has. And I met with Rich Pancost, who was the former head of the COVID Institute. And he was just so excited and, you know, wanting to know about my research. And there was this whole community.
00:20:01 Dr Alix Dietzel
Climate change scholars who are just so excited and like full of energy and anger, you know, and wanting to change things. And and I think that’s really special. So I worked very hard to get a permanent position here, which I eventually obtained a couple of years later.
00:20:16 Dr Alix Dietzel
So now I’m permanently here. You know, I’ve I, I, my husband moved here. We had a a child here so. And we’re raising a little bristolian now, so I love it here and I I get the same energy as you and. And it’s exciting to be part of it and to live here. I feel very lucky to be in the city and and I feel very excited to be researching the city.
00:20:36 Dr Alix Dietzel
This year, you know, and talking to people who’ve lived here their whole lives and who have experience and and who want to tell me about, you know, their climate change action and what justice means to them. And it’s just been a really rewarding project so far. So I guess one question we were going to talk about is.
00:20:54 Dr Alix Dietzel
What are the kind of challenges in your in your research area or in the area of, I guess climate advocacy?
00:21:02 Zakiya Mackenzie
Thinking about some of the challenges that we encounter here in Bristol in in our work.
00:21:10 Zakiya Mackenzie
You know very basic the the, the, the one thing that come into groups is always going to face for problems with this funding and not necessarily always getting the funding or even knowing the processes of of writing those bits and stuff like that. So there’s a there’s a, there’s a real problem for I think a lot of community organizations is when we’re talking about just getting the.
00:21:31 Zakiya Mackenzie
Admin, don’t you?
00:21:33 Zakiya Mackenzie
And same thing for like training programs. We have a lot of training programs, but what when people leave those training programs? We don’t have anything to help them get into the industry or the, you know, the the corporate part of of of this kind of work and. And so I think that becomes a problem in retaining people because then it come it comes across like you’re not good enough.
00:21:54 Zakiya Mackenzie
It’s because you don’t understand the process, right? So I think that that is a challenge.
00:21:58 Zakiya Mackenzie
That is not necessarily anything to do with the environment, but.
00:22:01 Zakiya Mackenzie
It is about.
00:22:02 Zakiya Mackenzie
How we organize to protect the environment, our our spaces, you know, but our challenges as well is also because as I said before, a lot of the ideas of of sustainability and justice, environmental justice, that might come from my community and I’m a Caribbean woman.
00:22:18 Zakiya Mackenzie
Might come from Indian community. You know, South Asian communities or communities in for African communities that are here, they will not be considered straight off the but sustainable. You know they they don’t come in line with what we we see.
00:22:35 Zakiya Mackenzie
As good climate policy in the global north, right, these are lots of the the the examples that we getting are from either working class people or immigrants or you know just not what is the Western idea of climate change in in the first.
00:22:52 Zakiya Mackenzie
This place.
00:22:54 Zakiya Mackenzie
Right. And and it works both ways because then you have the money trying to get people involved in climate change and you’re telling tell them about the Arctic. But you had a much more closer example.
00:23:02 Zakiya Mackenzie
Of their national tree back at home being, you know, deforested. So I think those connections are are probably another big problem is that we’re not learning from, especially not learning from the global South. And I think that’s a huge problem when we come to talk about solutions and and and policy and what we on our side to in the global north.
00:23:23 Zakiya Mackenzie
Have to be doing because again, it’s just one world, you know. And so I think underground in Bristol with with, with the Black and Green Project, which is just about us here in Bristol, our challenges have been trying to show why that stuff is important to us in the city. Why is it that we have to be concerned?
00:23:39 Zakiya Mackenzie
I’m we’re not concerned about or white, you know, whites connected. Cause I think when I’m trying to raise like too much fear. But I think why we have to understand things are connected. So when we start seeing you know like fires in the Amazon. I’m just raging why is it we need to understand that for some of the things we eat here some of the products we.
00:24:01 Zakiya Mackenzie
You know, so it’s for me, I think getting those getting those connections on both sides in communities and on the end of.
00:24:09 Zakiya Mackenzie
The the corporate people, policymakers, third sector quite often is hard because there’s not direct impact or result in our work for bristolians in that sense and. And so I I still, I’m trying to find that balance in saying like look, my work is very localized but it it’s localized within a global context.
00:24:29 Zakiya Mackenzie
How? How? You know that’s still a.
00:24:31 Zakiya Mackenzie
Of my struggle, and I know that you actually kind of work with him, so I might ask you how how is it that you either through your research have seen other groups or people kind of tackle the issue of being a a small local group that has to feed into much wider conversations?
00:24:49 Dr Alix Dietzel
I think like you know, I’ve just started.
00:24:51 Dr Alix Dietzel
My project and I’m interviewing people from these like smaller organizations in Bristol and I think what I’m hearing is that.
00:24:58 Dr Alix Dietzel
There’s just such a complexity to what’s going on, even just in a city you know, like, if you want to make a decision about cycle lanes.
00:25:06 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know, like where do you go? Who’s responsible for that? How do you get the Council to listen, like, who’s on the Transport Board? You know, so it’s it’s it’s really, really interesting that that decision making is just never straightforward. You know, whatever level you’re operating at. And that’s dangerous with climate change because we need good decisions.
00:25:26 Dr Alix Dietzel
Us decisions, quick decisions, you know, and that and that’s just not really.
00:25:31 Dr Alix Dietzel
Able to happen at the minute. So I think that that’s been one of the things.
00:25:34 Dr Alix Dietzel
00:25:34 Dr Alix Dietzel
Find interesting and and observing decision making as well. I feel like people are a bit cautious to be radical. I’m I’m sure when I talked to, you know, black and green, it might be a little bit different. But so far what I’ve seen is like.
00:25:51 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know.
00:25:53 Dr Alix Dietzel
I don’t want to give specific examples, but like I’ve seen a presentation by some by some big actor you know in Bristol that has high emissions and like some plans to change their their emissions levels. And it’s like very small incremental change. And then this group of experts listens to them like, you know, does anybody have any questions and nobody speaks up and says, you know, this isn’t good enough.
00:26:13 Dr Alix Dietzel
This is not OK, you know, I think it’s difficult to like, poke your head above the the perfect. Is that what you say in England and like?
00:26:22 Dr Alix Dietzel
Really speak for radical change and be listened to as well, so that’s something I’ve I’ve observed and I’ve found too in my in my studies of, you know, climate decision making at the global level like this. If we look at the COP process, for example, so the the conference of the Parties who have been meeting since the 90s every year to discuss climate action like the.
00:26:42 Dr Alix Dietzel
The results of those discussions and the the global frameworks that are created are so vague.
00:26:48 Dr Alix Dietzel
And they’re not radical at all, you know, like, yeah, it might be kind of radical to say let’s limit temperatures of 1.5°, but then the actual plans that come out from individual countries are nowhere near that. You know, we’re heading towards three, maybe 4° at the moment. So what I found in my research is that, like radical decision making.
00:27:08 Dr Alix Dietzel
Among state actors is really rare. It’s probably because voices that are radical are trampled over and ignored.
00:27:18 Dr Alix Dietzel
Communities are ignored. Like you said, you know versus from the global S voices from indigenous communities. For example, if you look at how the Paris Agreement was formulated before it was, you know, whatever, how many pages it is, 1516 pages. It was 88 pages long when they went into the call to decide, you know, what, the Paris Agreement.
00:27:38 Dr Alix Dietzel
Would look like.
00:27:39 Dr Alix Dietzel
And then line by line they went through all the options.
00:27:42 Dr Alix Dietzel
And what you see happening in those discussions is that, like the more radical options, you know, for example, let’s make a list of countries that are responsible for paying for climate change. And like, you know, let’s let’s write it down that that just gets erased and isn’t part of the Paris Agreement in the end. So I think, yeah, radical decision making is really missing. I also studied sub state.
00:28:01 Dr Alix Dietzel
Sectors across the world, so like cities working together, corporations working together, that kind of thing. And I found the same thing. You know, it’s very rare to find a truly radical movement. And that could be because they’re so small scale, you know, and not listen to that. I can’t find them when I’m when I’m doing my research, what I find is like these mainstream.
00:28:20 Dr Alix Dietzel
Organizations that are definitely making a change and trying to be creative and efficient and do good things, and they all care very much about the climate. But what’s missing is more radical voices and systemic change and you know, discussions around that.
00:28:35 Dr Alix Dietzel
And and even when you do see that. So for example, with Extinction Rebellion, who are trying to be quite radical, which is great, introducing lots of new, you know, topics to the conversation, there’s problems with those organizations too. And their decision making and who they.
00:28:50 Dr Alix Dietzel
Leave out so.
00:28:51 Dr Alix Dietzel
Yeah, decision making around climate change and.
00:28:54 Dr Alix Dietzel
It is. It is tough.
00:28:55 Dr Alix Dietzel
To study and and to to rest.
00:28:58 Dr Alix Dietzel
And you know, with the cop coming up now.
00:29:01 Dr Alix Dietzel
In the UK Cup 26.
00:29:04 Dr Alix Dietzel
I’m curious to see what they’re gonna do, whether there’s going to be any kind of interesting radical change. So there’s some different like aspects that they’re focusing on this year, like nature based solutions, adaptation and resilience, green finance, clean energy and transport. All that’s really important. But I’m just like, very much looking to them.
00:29:26 Dr Alix Dietzel
To shift something and how we react to climate change and what we’re doing because it’s just not good enough at the moment.
00:29:31 Dr Alix Dietzel
Sorry, that was quite a.
00:29:32 Dr Alix Dietzel
Long, long ride to my part.
00:29:36 Zakiya Mackenzie
I think you’re you’re right in that, you know, we don’t hear the voices. And again, I would say that the a lot of.
00:29:42 Zakiya Mackenzie
The voices probably.
00:29:43 Zakiya Mackenzie
Are there? They are not heard, and that might be with, as you said, they are so focused on the work that there’s not enough of anything to then go and.
00:29:55 Zakiya Mackenzie
Write an article or put it out there that they’re doing it. So I think there are lots of people and groups are working like that.
00:30:01 Zakiya Mackenzie
But it is, you know, and and we don’t hear about a lot of these small things. I didn’t until I started doing some of my own work and and and became connected with some of with with other groups like e-mail or working in Bristol Tribe of various working in Bristol who are who have either nature based programs or are working directly you know under the same lines that we’re working with.
00:30:22 Zakiya Mackenzie
I’m black and green and through that you.
00:30:25 Zakiya Mackenzie
Know those networks are so important.
00:30:27 Zakiya Mackenzie
And I and I honestly think that policy and it’s so hard to think about it because we have for so long had a top don’t look at everything. But you know, I really think policymakers and people at the top need to.
00:30:43 Zakiya Mackenzie
Be more you know out be be there and actually see things happening as as they go along and and not just.
00:30:51 Zakiya Mackenzie
Just sitting in in offices and and and I’m a bit disconnected, you know? And and I know that’s hard, but I again, I really think as you say it would take a lot of radical change for, for, for, for these voices to be heard. And I don’t you know as much as we’re doing with black and green. We are also now on the part where you can Google US. And so we’re going to be the top hit. So you’re going to call us.
00:31:12 Zakiya Mackenzie
And not go and look often for anyone else. Right? So I think we as a group have a responsibility to show show that there’s a wider network of people doing this, this this sort of.
00:31:24 Zakiya Mackenzie
Work. What? What policy has to, you know, policy makers and the decision makers also have to be interested enough to come to us to come into those communities, to come on the smallest level that you can get to of where these decisions are made, which is families and communities. You know, I really believe that we need to have.
00:31:45 Zakiya Mackenzie
Not just academics, right? And not, not not. Not just us. That also have to go in after as a reaction to try and say, hold up, don’t don’t ignore.
00:31:54 Zakiya Mackenzie
But to get proactively getting policy to to be very much present.
00:32:02 Zakiya Mackenzie
When when people.
00:32:03 Zakiya Mackenzie
Grassroots organizations small groups are making their decisions.
00:32:09 Dr Alix Dietzel
And you know, it shouldn’t just be up to black and green to represent.
00:32:12 Dr Alix Dietzel
All the movements.
00:32:14 Dr Alix Dietzel
In Bristol, and to be the only one, all the ones to be called on, you know, for for an exam.
00:32:19 Dr Alix Dietzel
People. So I’m just wondering, like, you know, we’ve been a bit disparaging about everything. Is, is there any hope or like anything in, in terms of solutions that you’ve been thinking about and like, do you see any good change happening I suppose?
00:32:33 Zakiya Mackenzie
Good change is coming and a lot of so I really think that.
00:32:39 Zakiya Mackenzie
A lot of the UK’s issues where it comes to inequalities. They’re not. They’re not only the environmental sector, so I don’t want people working in the environment to feel very bad. I really think it’s across the board.
00:32:51 Zakiya Mackenzie
But I do think the environmental sector is 1 space where that conversation is being had, probably more than other places or or was, you know, pre calls than coming down pre Black Lives Matter. Last year we’re kind of everyone and every organization has had to consider how they have been operating.
00:33:10 Zakiya Mackenzie
But I think green organizations tended to or or to me.
00:33:14 Zakiya Mackenzie
And you know, working in, in, in green spaces, green organizations tended to recognize that they needed to or something was missing, as you said, or they brought it to the conversation. So when XR came out and everyone else said so, where are the black people then? OK, I’m sure all the other green organizations then had to consider. OK.
00:33:34 Zakiya Mackenzie
What are we gonna say when we’re faced with that question?
00:33:37 Zakiya Mackenzie
So there’s a way where I definitely think you know I I think I I remember some of the groups that we met with during black and green as well. Their interest would be because they well they had interest in countries you know so so they had interest in countries where we had a lot of immigrants in Bristol.
00:33:59 Zakiya Mackenzie
And so.
00:34:00 Zakiya Mackenzie
There’s a way where just because of of that even they would have been interested in kind of speaking to us or speaking to who we knew could connect them with from these communities. So I think for sure, you know, I think green organizations in the UK have been considering it for much longer than other other kind of.
00:34:20 Zakiya Mackenzie
Industries or sectors or you know?
00:34:22 Zakiya Mackenzie
Places, and therefore I do believe the green sector is more open to having this discussion to having and and more than discussion cause we’ve been talking for a long time. You know, like we’ve been we we we’ve had these as you said these discussions have been have been happening for decades now and we’re at a point where I think there’s a lot of recognition OK we have to do something.
00:34:43 Zakiya Mackenzie
And so, you know, praise praises to green organizations. That’s, you know, specifically in Bristol, because I know for sure here. But also it would seem to mean why the UK, because I’ve met than other people of color.
00:34:58 Zakiya Mackenzie
People of color working in in, in different cities and you know comparing our experiences and knowing that it’s.
00:35:06 Zakiya Mackenzie
That there’s a there’s a value that’s recognized from our knowledge base that it’s recognized that there’s value in this knowledge base. That’s not necessarily English, environmental knowledge based or you know, way of use.
00:35:21 Zakiya Mackenzie
It and and and green space just because it’s the environment. And honestly as you said we we know that like there are a lot of stewards of the earth that come from the global north or from poor communities working class communities as it is. And so there’s a way you can’t ignore that or else you’re gonna get called out on it pretty quickly as.
00:35:40 Zakiya Mackenzie
We we’ve seen.
00:35:41 Zakiya Mackenzie
With ex. Or who have had to consider it. And I mean that’s what I’m saying too, about a city like Bristol is that we’re going to agitate so that you must consider it, or else you have no credibility, right. So if your credibility is gone, if you’re if you’re not considering these type of things and a lot of those.
00:35:57 Zakiya Mackenzie
XR conversations on race. They were here in Bristol. They they came from out of XRP working Bristol. I know because I, you know, being a part.
00:36:08 Zakiya Mackenzie
Of the green green.
00:36:09 Zakiya Mackenzie
Group here. I know because I you know, I was called in to to say, what do I think? Is it a problem you know? So I know that.
00:36:17 Zakiya Mackenzie
Conversations definitely happen in this city, for sure.
00:36:20 Dr Alix Dietzel
That’s really great. It’s good to hear, you know, and I think it’s nice to just to listen to you and to see.
00:36:29 Dr Alix Dietzel
That you’ve experienced a kind of shift of change and and that’s really that’s great. I I agree. I’ve I think I’ve seen two shifts 11 is this non state response to climate change you know the.
00:36:45 Dr Alix Dietzel
Kind of energy that there exists on the city level on the community level and and even with, you know, like people working together around the world.
00:36:56 Dr Alix Dietzel
Kind of acknowledging that the that the states are failing us in their decision making at the global level and that it’s not enough and it’s not good enough and it’s not fast enough and it’s not radical enough. So my kind of interest lies now in this non state response and I think a good example is always when Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement and he said, you know.
00:37:16 Dr Alix Dietzel
I I am. I care about the Mayor of Pittsburgh and not the Mayor of Paris, which makes no sense. But the Mayor of Pittsburgh was like, are you on about it now? Pittsburgh is a city still going to. It’s still going to follow the Paris Agreement targets and this whole movement started in the US called. We are still in you know all these all these corporations individuals NGO.
00:37:35 Dr Alix Dietzel
Cities, mayors you know coming together to to say we’re still taking action on climate change, you know, and and this kind of non state movement exists all around the world, you know. And. And we’ve been seeing it more and more in the kind of public media space like exr, Greta Thunberg, school strikes, you know, all this stuff. So that gives me a lot of hope and energy.
00:37:56 Dr Alix Dietzel
And that’s why I’m studying cities now and other subset doctors cause I just find them. Really. They give me much more hope than this global process, which makes me feel.
00:38:06 Dr Alix Dietzel
Serious. And then the second thing is like, just as a climate justice scholar.
00:38:12 Dr Alix Dietzel
To see the space.
00:38:15 Dr Alix Dietzel
I don’t know for my work and my interests opening up. So for example, like climate scientists wanting to know about justice.
00:38:24 Dr Alix Dietzel
People in the community in Bristol turning up to talks about climate justice and you know why it matters to think about philosophy and and responsibility and fairness and questions.
00:38:34 Dr Alix Dietzel
Like that. So that’s really cool. Like the city, the university, the Cabot Institute, like, all of a sudden, people care about justice and and. And thinking about what that actually means. So I think that’s great. Both of those things give me a lot of hope. And I think part of the solution to climate change is, like you said, including more voices, including ideas.
00:38:54 Dr Alix Dietzel
And and and including actors that are not big states at the cop making decisions because they’ve failed us.
00:39:03 Dr Alix Dietzel
Is there anything else you wanted to?
00:39:04 Dr Alix Dietzel
Ask or to talk about.
00:39:06 Zakiya Mackenzie
I actually wanted to ask you as coming, you know, from the Academy too, because I suppose this is also one of the criticisms that we have that the academics are also disconnected from what it is that happens in communities. So I’m I’m kind of interested in you in yourself as as an educator.
00:39:26 Zakiya Mackenzie
And your consideration of things like this and how is it that one we can possibly get other educators and academics out to us as well?
00:39:39 Dr Alix Dietzel
So I think you know it’s it’s complicated cause academics have all these metrics that they’re judged by, you know, like a research output, how good of a teacher.
00:39:47 Dr Alix Dietzel
You are, you know, whether you’re a good academic citizen and you’re doing your admin work. But like public engagement and and engaging with real people, you know, and communities is only just starting to be valued at the university.
00:40:00 Dr Alix Dietzel
So I think a lot of the academics think like it’s a waste of time. I can’t put it on my CV. It’s very like.
00:40:07 Dr Alix Dietzel
Instrumental in a way. And and I don’t blame them because you know, it’s a it’s a very tough competitive job to be an academic and and you need to succeed in order to get promoted and all this stuff. But I think yeah, community engagement and public.
00:40:20 Dr Alix Dietzel
Engagement is something that’s just becoming valuable in the eyes of the university. The same thing happened with teaching, and it took a while, but like teaching is much more value than it than it used to.
00:40:31 Dr Alix Dietzel
Be in comparison to.
00:40:32 Dr Alix Dietzel
Research. So I think that’s the challenge to get academics to see the value in it and not just instrumentally to to to get promoted, but.
00:40:40 Dr Alix Dietzel
The value in speaking to people in their communities, sharing their knowledge, but also listening to what the community has to say you.
00:40:48 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know, and that that has value and that is something academics need to learn, maybe through experience through through doing it themselves. I’ve certainly learned a lot by engaging with members of the community in Bristol. They have amazing questions about justice and, you know, really get me to think and. And I’m so grateful for them to to even.
00:41:09 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know, turn up and ask questions. It’s brilliant, but uh, and it won’t surprise you that a lot of these events that I.
00:41:16 Dr Alix Dietzel
We do.
00:41:17 Dr Alix Dietzel
You know where everyone in Bristol is invited? Technically, it’s a lot of middle class white faces in the audience, you know, and I think as academics were maybe seen as like uninteresting or snobby or kind of like wanting to exclude people and not wanting to see.
00:41:37 Dr Alix Dietzel
Certain people. So I think this this image of academics as.
00:41:42 Dr Alix Dietzel
Kind of separated from the community that really needs to change, and I think academics need to work on.
00:41:47 Dr Alix Dietzel
Showing that there that that’s not true, you know.
00:41:51 Dr Alix Dietzel
And that they don’t hold these values where they don’t want to see certain sectors of society. They don’t want to engage with working class people or people of color, you know, and and I want in my events that I hold anyway for people to feel like they can be there and it’s safe and you know their valued.
00:42:08 Dr Alix Dietzel
So I think that’s going to take a lot more work. Maybe the university working with community groups.
00:42:12 Dr Alix Dietzel
And really.
00:42:13 Dr Alix Dietzel
Showing up and showing that that matters to them.
00:42:17 Zakiya Mackenzie
So I I I operate in both worlds I suppose cause I’m still an academic for now and working with community groups as well and and still, you know, volunteering at my my, my organizations to make sure I kind of myself have the connection.
00:42:34 Zakiya Mackenzie
And and I know it sounds so simple, it sounds so kind of like basic, but the it’s it really is about possibly finding one. I think you know one group, one person and working from there hoping to get the snowball effect right because some of the organizations that I’ve.
00:42:55 Zakiya Mackenzie
Worked with. I’ve worked with them from from the beginning of Black and green, and I’ve now kind of left the black and green program, but they still can’t.
00:43:03 Zakiya Mackenzie
Me to work with them or if something is happening in the area they say look, you can head to this. So those aren’t all, you know, I’m talking about. These aren’t academic organizations, but I suppose I would have the same question for for, you know, just a regular kind of organization that’s not community based, right. That is state, I suppose.
00:43:23 Zakiya Mackenzie
And so that has worked for us in terms of when we kind of get out a one group or one person or one organ.
00:43:31 Zakiya Mackenzie
Initiation and we’ve sustained work with them over a few years and I found that has been better for us than if we have four or five organizations who are interested or we are interested in them. And we do a one off project, we get much more value I think on both sides. If we have a much more prolonged thing. So I think.
00:43:51 Zakiya Mackenzie
Academics and also, you know, other organizations who are not, who are working with, who would like to work with.
00:43:57 Zakiya Mackenzie
And it is probably shouldn’t be thinking too big because I think you you start getting into it and then it snowballs after a while and so you know, a great example is the Cabot Institute at the University of Bristol. You know, I started with them at with green and black.
00:44:14 Zakiya Mackenzie
Got training, got got all the kind of things that we needed. I know I’m at the point where sometimes covered institute calls me so then help train some of their their groups, you know with their communicate.
00:44:27 Zakiya Mackenzie
And so I think the fact that we can have a relationship that’s cyclical and then so when I talked to my new green and black ambassadors yesterday, I bring all the information specifically from Cabot to them because we know that we are trying to have a continued relationship with them where the information from this organization gets into our communities and.
00:44:48 Zakiya Mackenzie
Vice versa, and so then may become Art Institute becomes this shining example of how an organization can do it. And then on the other hand, black and green becomes an example of how we as you know and and we’re gonna group on the ground an organization on the ground can then work with the bigger actors who are who have who, who are kind of.
00:45:08 Zakiya Mackenzie
Making more of the decision right, we feed into them and.
00:45:11 Zakiya Mackenzie
Then they feed feed.
00:45:12 Zakiya Mackenzie
Feed out into into the policy and so for me, I’d always say, and that can make tricky because you might get a gatekeeper who’s not a good one, who who blocks you from kind of other other things that would be good for you to know or to be involved.
00:45:27 Zakiya Mackenzie
With but it I I really think it has to start and that’s an easy way to start I suppose if.
00:45:33 Zakiya Mackenzie
There’s just.
00:45:34 Zakiya Mackenzie
One one or two groups that that you can have a more sustained relationship with instead of thinking every new new project has to be a new group or or things along that lines.
00:45:46 Dr Alix Dietzel
That’s really helpful. Thank you. I’m hoping through my new project where I’m meeting smaller scale groups that that I can form some new.
00:45:53 Dr Alix Dietzel
Relationships instead of just sitting in my ivory tower.
00:45:57 Zakiya Mackenzie
Well, yeah, because you know what? I think those relationships are important, especially when talking to, you know, people who have been left out before, people that we call the minorities or disadvantaged is that there’s been so much research that these communities already, they have research fatigue and also just mistrust.
00:46:17 Zakiya Mackenzie
Because quite often the research has been done and they never hear back, what happens, the policy might have been implemented, but they actually themselves might not know the process and know that this new law or policy they fed into it, so that that’s why that relationship is important because they have to be going back.
00:46:35 Zakiya Mackenzie
And saying look, thank you for what you did.
00:46:37 Zakiya Mackenzie
Here’s the result of it. It might take three years. This is how this thing works, right? Because we want quick results. But actually, you know this all, saying also about just the the kind of gaps in knowledge and and just how things work.
00:46:52 Zakiya Mackenzie
Right. And how things work and and just that can cause problems in terms of if if going to a community and research today they want the results tomorrow or some communities we we as as black and green ambassadors going as Jasmine and I I have Caribbean background she has W African background.
00:47:12 Zakiya Mackenzie
Us wanting to go to a community that is neither but is still, you know, would still be considered a black community.
00:47:18 Zakiya Mackenzie
Us learning that there’s no way we’re just going to going one day and do research. We have to go to dinner with them, sit with the big me like we have to learn that. That’s the process to get to these people. But once you do that, you’re kind of set on on, you know, you’re kind of set for what you need to learn from that group of people. They introduce you to others and then you kind of.
00:47:39 Zakiya Mackenzie
You you know, you set expand so then you can kind of look at other idea triangulate. OK. This one. What what might be different from what they say?
00:47:46 Zakiya Mackenzie
You know, but you gotta start somewhere. And so my my advice is always, uh, start there, just get get and there’s always a group working. They’re all there’s. I mean, I haven’t found one yet. I haven’t been able to find a part of. I mean, parts of the UK yet where someone says they want to do this type of work. And I haven’t been able.
00:48:07 Zakiya Mackenzie
There, there hasn’t been somebody already doing it or able to connect so. So a bit of that, that’s that’s the hard part is trying to find the connections I think to begin with and it’s uncomfortable you know it’s uncomfortable but we have to get over that.
00:48:24 Dr Alix Dietzel
Thank you. That’s really helpful.
00:48:26 Dr Alix Dietzel
What message do you want to share with policymakers?
00:48:30 Zakiya Mackenzie
Policymakers need to get uncomfortable. Don’t be afraid to get uncomfortable and learn the things from the people you represent. I really think flipping that power thing on the head is is is really.
00:48:46 Zakiya Mackenzie
A good way so so for example in Bristol we ask our people at the top to go to a community meeting of an immigrant group where they don’t speak the language, so they are the one who doesn’t understand. And so I think getting uncomfortable a little bit is a great way to.
00:49:03 Zakiya Mackenzie
Think in other peoples from other people’s position.
00:49:07 Dr Alix Dietzel
Great.
00:49:09 Dr Alix Dietzel
My message to policymakers is stop the vague rhetoric around justice and do the work. You know, it’s one thing to promise to take human rights into account or protect future generations in these in these policy document.
00:49:23 Dr Alix Dietzel
And and it’s another to really do that dirty work and and and implement systemic change and be radical and and really rethink how we approach climate change because what we’ve been doing for the past 30 years isn’t working. Incremental change is not enough. We need systemic change at every level of society. And as a policymaker, it’s your job to figure out how to do that.
00:49:43 Dr Alix Dietzel
Not to say you’re going.
00:49:45 Dr Alix Dietzel
So environmental justice matters because.
00:49:50 Dr Alix Dietzel
Questions about climate change and environmental preservation are questions of justice. You know, how do we approach making a decision on what to do about climate change without talking about justice? We we need to know what we owe to people. Who is responsible for what, what a fair decision is. And it’s just impossible to make any kind of decision.
00:50:10 Dr Alix Dietzel
And protecting the environment without considering justice, the other reason it matters is because you know, we’ve just had a whole conversation about voices who get left out of the process. If if you don’t approach the process with justice in mind.
00:50:22
Yep.
00:50:23 Dr Alix Dietzel
You’re going to leave out important voices, valuable voices. And that’s not just a matter of injustice, because you’re leaving them out. But it’s also a matter of really missing out on valuable knowledge about how to protect the environment. So that’s why it matters for everyone.
00:50:40 Zakiya Mackenzie
From my point of view, environmental justice is important for everyone because we have one earth, we have one planet to protect and I think, and we know that things have knock on effects and even more so we know that.
00:50:57 Zakiya Mackenzie
That when things get worse in one area, it probably means that other areas could be impacted as well. So for me, I think we have the justice element has to be there and equality. You know, I think I’m very much about looking for areas of inequality and stamping them up because that is where we leave some people behind to not care about climate change because they.
00:51:17 Zakiya Mackenzie
They’re worrying about eating a meal tonight, alright, and I think I I my thing is always that the more people we have that know and care about what is happening is the better chance we have of coming up with more solutions. As Alex has said.
00:51:31 Zakiya Mackenzie
Because if we if we can tap into the knowledge base of more people, then we have more working with we we can figure out more, we have much more based information data to begin with to to then form our our solutions in the end and so.
00:51:48 Zakiya Mackenzie
Justice is important because we have one planet to protect.
00:51:51 Zakiya Mackenzie
For all of us.
00:51:58 Cabot Institute
You can find out more about the Cabot Institute for the environment at bristol.ac.uk/cabot.
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