Welcome to Research Frontiers, a podcast series that highlights how our groundbreaking research informs teaching on the 150+ postgraduate programmes available at the University of Bristol.
What does the future of work look like? And how do we make it sustainable, yet progressive? In this fascinating first episode, host Ruby Lott-Lavigna poses these questions and more with Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic, an associate professor in International Labour Migration, and Dr Huw Thomas, a lecturer in Management. Together with student Mekhala Laud they delve into what the future of work might look like, the right to decent work, and the impact of the digital economy on the workplace.
Find out more about our MSc Human Resource Management and the Future of Work programme
Image Credit: Adobe Stock / puhhha
Transcript:
00:00:00 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
From the University of Bristol, you are listening to research frontiers. Hello, and welcome to Research Frontiers, a podcast series from the University of Bristol. I’m your host, Ruby Lavinia. And throughout this series, I’ll be joined by a collection of Bristol sport leaders taking a deep dive into the research at the university.
00:00:21 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Which is changing the world and enriching the education of students who study here, or contributors will include some of the university’s most inspiring minds and the students who learn from them.
00:00:31 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Throughout these conversations, we’ll uncover the transformative power of research both on our society and in solving global challenges, as well as in the future education of students.
00:00:43 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
In this episode, we take a look at social sciences by way of resource management and the future of work. I’m joined by Doctor Rutvica Andrijasevic, an associate professor at the International Labour Migration and Dr. Huw Thomas, a lecturer in management.
00:00:56 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
I’m also joined by Mekhala Laud an alumna of Bristol University.
00:01:02 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
It’s lovely to meet.
00:01:02 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
You. Yay. Lovely to meet you too.
00:01:06 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Let’s begin with you. Rita, could you talk to us a bit about your research areas and perhaps us in some of your current or recent research?
00:01:13 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Projects. OK, so in terms of my research earlier, what I have been researching for a really long time is labour migration. What interested me.
00:01:21 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Initially was how state immigration policies, and in particular, border policies and residency policy, create vulnerability in the labor.
00:01:35 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Because they make migrants deportable, which then exposes them to higher levels of exploitation by their employers. And it’s also how immigration policies tie migrants into one workplace because their work depends on they like to stay in the country.
00:01:54 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Recent research has been very much focused on what they.
00:01:56 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Called platforms of migration and this is the impact of digital technologies on migration patterns, structures, flows and workplace relations.
00:02:07 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That was really interesting and if you can recall, was there a specific internal situation which led you into this area or a moment where you felt particularly drawn to it?
00:02:16 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
But for the last seven years, I have been researching labor rights.
00:02:21 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
In electronic supply chains in Eastern Europe, what it’s really important to know is that electronics industry, especially electronics manufacturing, manufacturing is all about time competition. What is at the base of electronics industry is so-called just in time and just in time is really about getting.
00:02:40 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
The right paths to the right factories and the right moment. But what interested me is well, when we talk about just in time, we always talk about components, but what about people? Three years ago I was in Slovakia doing field work.
00:02:54 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And during that field work, we stayed in dormitories where migrant workers stay, and these are the migrant workers that assemble the gadgets that we use. They assemble the laptops, desktops and so on. What struck me was that behind the reception desk, there was a number of really big clocks.
00:03:14 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Which displayed different time in different time zones and these were all locations that were key.
00:03:21 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
For the production and Assembly of electronics, and this is when I started thinking about time.
00:03:27 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thing and and.
00:03:28 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Huw, how about you? Can you tell us a bit about your research areas and what kind?
00:03:32 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Of drew you to it.
00:03:33 Dr Huw Thomas
My research kind of focuses on the kind of governance and regulation of work, so I’m interested in questions around how free trade and kind of the cross organization of production across Borders.
00:03:44 Dr Huw Thomas
Has created challenges for the government to work, so whether you think about the rise of global value chains, the idea that you know the phones in front of us are made-up of millions of different parts from all over across the globe has created a lot of problems for policy actors as well as as labour, more specifically unions.
00:04:04 Dr Huw Thomas
Workers, etcetera. So most of my research is kind of focused down on how these.
00:04:09 Dr Huw Thomas
Unions and policymakers have tried to experiment with kind of different institutions to secure decent work, basically. So I’ve looked at this question in a couple of different sectors, mainly the agricultural sector, so I’ve done work in, in the palm oil sector and also the tea sector, so looked at again questions there.
00:04:28 Dr Huw Thomas
The body.
00:04:29 Dr Huw Thomas
Mean has has restructured kind of production in these two sectors and how this has had often quite a significant negative impact on the terms conditions of employment of workers by the level of the plantation and ways in which actors in these sectors have tried to improve their conditions of work basically, I guess also more recently because everything is digital.
00:04:49 Dr Huw Thomas
Now I’ve also.
00:04:50 Dr Huw Thomas
Become interested impressions around the digital transformation of work as well, and that’s linked with the previous work, which is about what? How many unions and policy actors experiment with different forms of regulation to improve their conditions, work in terms of how I sort of came to this broad area of interest. You know, this was actually inspired by.
00:05:10 Dr Huw Thomas
When I was an undergraduate and did courses in international employment relations and was exposed to the the poor conditions of work that many workers across the globe face and that inspired me to do a PhD as part of that, I went and worked for the United Nations Specialised Agency that deals with questions around labour standards, the.
00:05:29 Dr Huw Thomas
The Labour Organization, and so that was my kind of opening into the sort of international dimension of the world work.
00:05:36 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That’s cool. So not just like a kind of theoretical look at it, but also kind of being able to see the impact of your research as well. And Mika, this is a good time to to bring you in. What course are you currently involved in at Bristol and what can you?
00:05:48 Mekhala Laud
Tell us about the studies. So. So I’m a part of the both predate taught program, which is taught by Hugh Thomas. He’s a program.
00:05:56 Mekhala Laud
I’d like to put it on.
00:05:57 Mekhala Laud
With Vikas, also one of the professors.
00:05:59 Mekhala Laud
So it’s the MSC in Human Resource Management and Future of work. I think being HR professional for three years in India, I had gained exposure into the work of in HR in the organization. But I was always intrigued by the future of work and how it was evolving.
00:06:19 Mekhala Laud
At a global level, you know when I was exploring courses across the globe, this was one of the courses which really caught my interest.
00:06:28 Mekhala Laud
Because it dealt with understanding international employment relations.
00:06:34 Mekhala Laud
And it also focused on the research, which was revolving around future of work. So I think that is one of the reasons why, you know, I decided to take up this course and while you’re studying this course, we have explored topics which are related to the platform economy, about the alternatives which are.
00:06:53 Mekhala Laud
Emerging for future of work, which are slightly different from what a traditional organization structure would look like, and I think that is something that will in future also help me in shaping the work that I would do.
00:07:06 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That’s great. And why? Why Bristol then specifically.
00:07:09 Mekhala Laud
I think among the courses across UK, this was one of the only courses which had all the topics that covered the topics relating and researching about future of work. All the academics that are at the university are focusing extensively on improving the future of work. Again, I’m stating this point.
00:07:30 Mekhala Laud
Is because if you if you look at the topic which which which is researching on it is about improving the work futures for the migrant labours, which is something that I think has really made me interested in selecting this university particularly.
00:07:48 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
OK, cool. And just back to you, Lisa, when it comes to kind of the subject of the future of work, which is a phrase that’s that’s already come up, is it something that can be easily dissected? And how do you?
00:07:58 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Tackle something like this and talk about it.
00:08:00 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
I think the subject of future work is huge.
00:08:03 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And therefore the way that I have tried to work with this topic, especially in the units that I’m teaching, is through looking at technology. And I think what really interests me when it comes to technology and the and the future of work is that often when we discuss technology and work.
00:08:23 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
We end up talking about platform economy and gig work and then.
00:08:28 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
We end up focusing very much on unequal power relations between the platforms and the workers and workers lacking labor rights because they are not employed by the platform. But what really interests me, though, is a different view of technology, and I think for me this opens up other venues of thinking about.
00:08:48 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Future work so thinking which technologies or how do they mediate life and therefore how do they interfere, Occupy, colonize our private sphere and therefore how how work bleeds constantly into life or how?
00:09:05 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
It is difficult to distinguish upon duty between work and life anymore, but then what is really what comes on top of that for me is issues about the planet and the more proper issues around sustainability. And it is the impact of these technologies that all of a sudden are governing our work, are governing our lives.
00:09:26 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
But they also have a deep impact on on the planet and on the resources of the planet.
00:09:32 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That’s a pretty complex. Yeah, understandable way to kind of break it.
00:09:35 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Down and look at it, Hugh.
00:09:36 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Your work involves agriculture and and transport. How do you keep updated on these areas and what sort of?
00:09:42 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Developments. Are you really observing?
00:09:44 Dr Huw Thomas
I’ll start with things around transport. When you look at like the impact of of COVID-19 on economic sectors, Civil Aviation and sort of air traffic management has been one of the hard.
00:09:54 Dr Huw Thomas
Hits. I mean, as we’ve seen, obviously COVID-19 meant you know, a lot of our travel plans were cancelled and planes had to be grounded and this led to a lot of staff being laid off, made redundant or put on furlough scheme as we’ve seen in the in the UK and a.
00:10:08 Dr Huw Thomas
Lot of that.
00:10:09 Dr Huw Thomas
Has been covered, but what has been perhaps less covered is around the impact this had on on air traffic control.
00:10:15 Dr Huw Thomas
So they’ve had to kind of keep working during the pandemic because you’ve had repatriation flights, you’ve.
00:10:21 Dr Huw Thomas
Medical supplies, for example, being flown in. So although they’ve had obviously a reduced level of activity, they’re still having to keep that level of operational activity. And So what we’ve seen in in air traffic control has been vast differences in terms of how the organisations have reacted to COVID. So you’ve seen in some cases massive layoffs of staff.
00:10:41 Dr Huw Thomas
In some cases, such significant layoffs of of staff that the remaining staff have been working have had to then go off sick with stress and mental health.
00:10:51 Dr Huw Thomas
In one country, this meant that they then brought in other air traffic control officers to come in to try and take up that slack in demand, which had an impact on safety because these people weren’t as trained to the same standards as they should have been, you know? And so you’ve seen also a reduction number of people being trained up as well. It takes about three years to train up an air traffic control officer.
00:11:11 Dr Huw Thomas
Training has been cut, which means now when you’ve seen this massive increase in flight.
00:11:16 Dr Huw Thomas
They’ve not been able to keep up with that demand and that’s had a a massive impact on service and and and stuff like that as well. So a project that I’ve been part of over the last year or so, which has been involving a number of international trade unions and international professional associations has been looking at can we rethink air traffic management.
00:11:36 Dr Huw Thomas
We’ve shown that traffic control has not been pandemic proof. Is there ways of using COVID to rethink these operations?
00:11:44 Dr Huw Thomas
And as myself and rabbits are the kind of perspective we’re coming from is very much about how we improve people working lives here. If we can. So how do I keep up with those those things? Well, like I said, a lot of it is a lot of my research is driven by working with unions and other organisations. And in a way, what we try and do then is is, is.
00:12:04 Dr Huw Thomas
Academics in the University of Bristol here try and use this research that we’re doing often with policy act.
00:12:08 Dr Huw Thomas
Actors and then try and bring it into the classroom as well. So some of the stuff that we’ve been teaching on the MC and Human resource management, the future of work has been around questions around international employment relations, for example, how these things are, how these organizations are kind of structured, the impact, the COVID that has had on the employment relationship and then try and bring the expertise experiences we’ve had.
00:12:29 Dr Huw Thomas
Into you know how we engage with people like Michaela, for example, and other students on the course. Just a very quick thing on.
00:12:36 Dr Huw Thomas
Torture the massive impact we’ll see at the moment on for agriculture expressions around food shortages that are gonna be are gonna have a massive impact also on on, on cost of living and things like that. But what you’ve also seen I think in agriculture the biggest impact will be climate change and the massive devastation of a lot of plantation crops, for example.
00:12:57 Dr Huw Thomas
Because of climate change and again the the my interest there is then.
00:13:01 Dr Huw Thomas
These workers that depend on these agricultural commodities for their livelihoods, where do they go after this? Well, what other employment opportunities are there? So some of my research now has been looking at this kind of interface between climate change and and work.
00:13:16 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Nicola, just back to you kind of thinking about everything you’ve heard. Does this kind of chime in with your studies and resonate particularly with what you’ve been?
00:13:24 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
On.
00:13:24 Mekhala Laud
Absolutely. In fact, the topics that we have studied are very much in tune with what the research work our professors are doing at the moment and their collaborations with other organizations. Just to give you an example, for use unit we had done.
00:13:44 Mekhala Laud
Game assignment on presenting a report to the Bristol University which would be related to one of the issues that is being projected by the International Labour Organization and how we could as students act as consultants in presenting a report that showcases.
00:14:04 Mekhala Laud
Research based facts on the issues that people are facing in the world of work. Another example which I can give is.
00:14:13 Mekhala Laud
About students taking a stand of either the employer, the worker or an employee representative organization, and this allowed us to gain knowledge about the research from various perspectives, not just from an academic perspective or a theoretical perspective.
00:14:33 Mekhala Laud
But it helped us.
00:14:35 Mekhala Laud
In doing research about the topics you know which are currently the issues of the workers around different organizations, not just in the UK or in the Europe but across the globe. And I think that is something that definitely helps us in gaining a broader view of you.
00:14:54 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Know work. Yeah, it seems like an incredibly.
00:14:56 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Relevant academic area.
00:15:05 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
We’re mixing hue at this point in time. How do you feel about the future of work? Obviously, it’s very nuanced subject, but what are your feelings on how things are looking?
00:15:16
It’s a great.
00:15:16 Dr Huw Thomas
Question what do I feel about it? Well, I mean, I guess you’ve gotta keep these things a little bit upbeat for a for a podcast, but I mean.
00:15:24 Dr Huw Thomas
I mean, if you think about the future of work, I think the the, the looming question around the future of work is going to be.
00:15:29 Dr Huw Thomas
Impact of of climate catastrophe. Basically, I don’t think you can talk about work in in any way without talking about that. And you know the the future of work is something that’s that’s often pitched in in these questions around, you know, either even like robots are gonna take our jobs and we’re gonna have us leisure time and we have to figure out what to do with all this free time that we’re gonna have.
00:15:50 Dr Huw Thomas
And like you said, there’s a lot more nuance to this, and I think a lot of it comes down to.
00:15:54 Dr Huw Thomas
You people have been more agency over this a bit more say over what the future work actually means to them. I just think that the future of work is is something which you need to get a lot more coordination between different countries. I mean a lot of stuff that I’ve looked at, for example, has looked at trying to get even countries to all agree.
00:16:14 Dr Huw Thomas
That something is either a labour right or not a labour right. As many states have tried to promote themselves as being an attractive place and more nationals to come and invest in in their countries, often by relaxing their labour standards, the trade.
00:16:31 Dr Huw Thomas
National Institutions of global governance, the United Nations and and others have found it quite difficult to mediate these different voices of the state, even on simple questions around whether something is a labour right or not. And so obviously, when it comes to the question of what we’re going to do in relation to the climate crisis, I think that would be the real test of whether.
00:16:52 Dr Huw Thomas
Global governance can kind of keep up and actually make a a proper kind of response to some of these problems, but I don’t know. Are you happy?
00:16:59 Dr Huw Thomas
Are.
00:16:59 Dr Huw Thomas
You, you know, are you more optimistic or more pessimistic? Maybe you can make it more upbeat than me.
00:17:05 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
What’s that mean? When when you talked about about the future of work?
00:17:09 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
That you talked about technology on the one hand and then you talk about climate crisis, we’ve got to think these two things together because technology is about the climate crisis and going back again to the unit that I teach and about sustainable planet, I think what is really, really fascinating is that when we, when we think about technology, we really often link it automation or we link it to work.
00:17:31 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And the and the changing work, but don’t we don’t link it to the planet. But if you think about technology, think about your mobile phone. Now think about this call that we are having. It needs Internet.
00:17:41 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Right, but Internet is not immaterial. Internet is physical. Internet needs devices to operate on it. Therefore it needs hardware. It needs software. It also needs cables and those cables that run at the bottom of the ocean. They have impact on the oceanic life. They have impact because they need to be repaired.
00:18:02 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
They have to be maintained. They have impacts, especially on the shallow water and there is military relations and power struggles around those cables, right? So that’s one issue. And then to run software you need data center.
00:18:17 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Data centers produce CO2 because they need cooling, and that cooling happens through air conditioning. They consume a huge amount of water because they are also usually in the places where there is little water, and therefore you have conflicts with local population around public water management.
00:18:37 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And then that also brings us to the issue of the hardware and that for the components of the of the hardware of our mobile phone, of the of the screens and the gadgets that we’re using, they need precious metal. So and this is then the whole business of extraction extractivism how it destroys.
00:18:57 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Planet and how these are finite resources we use more of the cloud which is also linked again to the data centers. I would like to for us to kind of think them to.
00:19:09 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
One of the biggest struggles and I have I have faith in that one is around e-waste and the right to repair it because we use all of this tech that has inbuilt the obsolescence cycle. So therefore it cannot be repaired. Just think that the laptop that we are using now we use it usually for three years.
00:19:29 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Four years. That’s the average life.
00:19:31 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Span. But actually we would need to use it for 20 years to sustain account of of its CO2 emissions.
00:19:38 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Yeah. Well, I feel like there was maybe one positive point in there about the right to repair that we can feel a bit hopeful about and and michella, what about you, do you feel positive about the future of work? How do?
00:19:43 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:49 Mekhala Laud
You think about it, I think so, yes.
00:19:51 Mekhala Laud
Ever since we have been discussing the future of work, the dynamics have changed. But what remains is the hope for building that future, which is sustainable, and I think that is the part where, you know, we can hope that there are going to be actors in the society who will take.
00:20:09 Mekhala Laud
Steps to make things better. I think through courses like these as well, you know, put challenges into the minds of students who will want to then you know, dwell deep into those topics and then identify areas of research which can bring the future of work to be a better place. And also when we transition from.
00:20:30 Mekhala Laud
Non renewable to the renewable energy sources we see work displacement, the places where the work of non renewable energy resources works and the place where the newer energy sources will emerge is going to be different. So people who are working in those sectors will.
00:20:47 Mekhala Laud
Have to shift.
00:20:48 Mekhala Laud
From one geographical area to another geographical area, it brings the loss of work, but it also brings new opportunities for people in different locations.
00:20:58 Dr Huw Thomas
I would say that I’m I’m much more optimistic after hearing Mikala speak actually and if anything, if we had, you know, we had more students like Mikaela, then maybe I’d be more optimistic about the future.
00:21:10 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Yes, definitely.
00:21:12 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Great. And then I guess, yeah, just finally one one piece of advice.
00:21:16 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
From you all.
00:21:17 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
To students kind of considering this course you, we can start with you.
00:21:21 Dr Huw Thomas
My my piece of advice would be be prepared to be challenged. I think the reason why we set up this program was because there wasn’t anything in the UK or specifically designed to tackle some of the major challenges facing the world of work. Basically, there wasn’t anything specifically focused on.
00:21:38 Dr Huw Thomas
And the future of work or the futures of work. And so I think for any students that are considering this program, are interested in in the future of work the way that it’s going to affect their livelihoods going forward, the way it’s gonna affect any employment that they get and and also, as anyone who’s interested in trying to stand in the marketplace, this is a really great program.
00:21:59 Dr Huw Thomas
As a program that, yeah, challenges you on your kind of existing ideas and and.
00:22:04 Dr Huw Thomas
Yes.
00:22:05 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
And Nicola, how about you?
00:22:07 Mekhala Laud
This course definitely would be interesting for students who are interested in shaping the structures or policies at an international level for employment relations. I think this course helps you reimagine the alternatives of work as well. That is something that will be defining.
00:22:27 Mekhala Laud
For the future of work.
00:22:30 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Pizza.
00:22:30 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
If you’re interested in these topics, come and study with us. We’re gonna take you out of your comfort zone and we’re gonna teach you to think, to converse.
00:22:42 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And to engage from different kind of perspectives that you might not be immediately comfortable with. So if you’re someone who is deeply invested in workers rights, that is absolutely fantastic. But we’re going to also teach you what will be the perspective of the companies and therefore of the businesses of the capital.
00:23:04 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
They will also teach you what will be the perspective of the trend.
00:23:08 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Unions and these three perspectives are different because the priorities are different, but you need to understand all three of them in order to be able to establish dialogue in the workplace and to take your organization forward.
00:23:24 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thank you all so much for your time and such an inspiring conversation. It’s been fascinating to chat with you.
00:23:30 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thanks so much. Cheers guys.
00:23:32 Mekhala Laud
Thank you.
00:23:33 Dr Huw Thomas
Thanks. Bye, bye.
00:23:37 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thank you for listening to research frontiers from Bristol University. We hope you found inspiration, information, answers and more in all of these great conversations. Don’t forget to check in over at www.bristol.ac.uk/study/postgraduate for more details on Bristol courses and information about Bristol University also.
00:23:56 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Keep the podcast nearby, subscribe to research frontiers wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and please do share with people who might benefit to you. Thank you for listening to research frontiers.
Audio file
Transcript
00:00:00 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
From the University of Bristol, you are listening to research frontiers. Hello, and welcome to Research Frontiers, a podcast series from the University of Bristol. I’m your host, Ruby Lavinia. And throughout this series, I’ll be joined by a collection of Bristol sport leaders taking a deep dive into the research at the university.
00:00:21 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Which is changing the world and enriching the education of students who study here, or contributors will include some of the university’s most inspiring minds and the students who learn from them.
00:00:31 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Throughout these conversations, we’ll uncover the transformative power of research both on our society and in solving global challenges, as well as in the future education of students.
00:00:43 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
In this episode, we take a look at social sciences by way of resource management and the future of work. I’m joined by Doctor Rutvica Andrijasevic, an associate professor at the International Labour Migration and Dr. Huw Thomas, a lecturer in management.
00:00:56 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
I’m also joined by Mekhala Laud an alumna of Bristol University.
00:01:02 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
It’s lovely to meet.
00:01:02 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
You. Yay. Lovely to meet you too.
00:01:06 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Let’s begin with you. Rita, could you talk to us a bit about your research areas and perhaps us in some of your current or recent research?
00:01:13 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Projects. OK, so in terms of my research earlier, what I have been researching for a really long time is labour migration. What interested me.
00:01:21 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Initially was how state immigration policies, and in particular, border policies and residency policy, create vulnerability in the labor.
00:01:35 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Because they make migrants deportable, which then exposes them to higher levels of exploitation by their employers. And it’s also how immigration policies tie migrants into one workplace because their work depends on they like to stay in the country.
00:01:54 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Recent research has been very much focused on what they.
00:01:56 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Called platforms of migration and this is the impact of digital technologies on migration patterns, structures, flows and workplace relations.
00:02:07 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That was really interesting and if you can recall, was there a specific internal situation which led you into this area or a moment where you felt particularly drawn to it?
00:02:16 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
But for the last seven years, I have been researching labor rights.
00:02:21 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
In electronic supply chains in Eastern Europe, what it’s really important to know is that electronics industry, especially electronics manufacturing, manufacturing is all about time competition. What is at the base of electronics industry is so-called just in time and just in time is really about getting.
00:02:40 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
The right paths to the right factories and the right moment. But what interested me is well, when we talk about just in time, we always talk about components, but what about people? Three years ago I was in Slovakia doing field work.
00:02:54 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And during that field work, we stayed in dormitories where migrant workers stay, and these are the migrant workers that assemble the gadgets that we use. They assemble the laptops, desktops and so on. What struck me was that behind the reception desk, there was a number of really big clocks.
00:03:14 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Which displayed different time in different time zones and these were all locations that were key.
00:03:21 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
For the production and Assembly of electronics, and this is when I started thinking about time.
00:03:27 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thing and and.
00:03:28 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Huw, how about you? Can you tell us a bit about your research areas and what kind?
00:03:32 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Of drew you to it.
00:03:33 Dr Huw Thomas
My research kind of focuses on the kind of governance and regulation of work, so I’m interested in questions around how free trade and kind of the cross organization of production across Borders.
00:03:44 Dr Huw Thomas
Has created challenges for the government to work, so whether you think about the rise of global value chains, the idea that you know the phones in front of us are made-up of millions of different parts from all over across the globe has created a lot of problems for policy actors as well as as labour, more specifically unions.
00:04:04 Dr Huw Thomas
Workers, etcetera. So most of my research is kind of focused down on how these.
00:04:09 Dr Huw Thomas
Unions and policymakers have tried to experiment with kind of different institutions to secure decent work, basically. So I’ve looked at this question in a couple of different sectors, mainly the agricultural sector, so I’ve done work in, in the palm oil sector and also the tea sector, so looked at again questions there.
00:04:28 Dr Huw Thomas
The body.
00:04:29 Dr Huw Thomas
Mean has has restructured kind of production in these two sectors and how this has had often quite a significant negative impact on the terms conditions of employment of workers by the level of the plantation and ways in which actors in these sectors have tried to improve their conditions of work basically, I guess also more recently because everything is digital.
00:04:49 Dr Huw Thomas
Now I’ve also.
00:04:50 Dr Huw Thomas
Become interested impressions around the digital transformation of work as well, and that’s linked with the previous work, which is about what? How many unions and policy actors experiment with different forms of regulation to improve their conditions, work in terms of how I sort of came to this broad area of interest. You know, this was actually inspired by.
00:05:10 Dr Huw Thomas
When I was an undergraduate and did courses in international employment relations and was exposed to the the poor conditions of work that many workers across the globe face and that inspired me to do a PhD as part of that, I went and worked for the United Nations Specialised Agency that deals with questions around labour standards, the.
00:05:29 Dr Huw Thomas
The Labour Organization, and so that was my kind of opening into the sort of international dimension of the world work.
00:05:36 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That’s cool. So not just like a kind of theoretical look at it, but also kind of being able to see the impact of your research as well. And Mika, this is a good time to to bring you in. What course are you currently involved in at Bristol and what can you?
00:05:48 Mekhala Laud
Tell us about the studies. So. So I’m a part of the both predate taught program, which is taught by Hugh Thomas. He’s a program.
00:05:56 Mekhala Laud
I’d like to put it on.
00:05:57 Mekhala Laud
With Vikas, also one of the professors.
00:05:59 Mekhala Laud
So it’s the MSC in Human Resource Management and Future of work. I think being HR professional for three years in India, I had gained exposure into the work of in HR in the organization. But I was always intrigued by the future of work and how it was evolving.
00:06:19 Mekhala Laud
At a global level, you know when I was exploring courses across the globe, this was one of the courses which really caught my interest.
00:06:28 Mekhala Laud
Because it dealt with understanding international employment relations.
00:06:34 Mekhala Laud
And it also focused on the research, which was revolving around future of work. So I think that is one of the reasons why, you know, I decided to take up this course and while you’re studying this course, we have explored topics which are related to the platform economy, about the alternatives which are.
00:06:53 Mekhala Laud
Emerging for future of work, which are slightly different from what a traditional organization structure would look like, and I think that is something that will in future also help me in shaping the work that I would do.
00:07:06 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That’s great. And why? Why Bristol then specifically.
00:07:09 Mekhala Laud
I think among the courses across UK, this was one of the only courses which had all the topics that covered the topics relating and researching about future of work. All the academics that are at the university are focusing extensively on improving the future of work. Again, I’m stating this point.
00:07:30 Mekhala Laud
Is because if you if you look at the topic which which which is researching on it is about improving the work futures for the migrant labours, which is something that I think has really made me interested in selecting this university particularly.
00:07:48 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
OK, cool. And just back to you, Lisa, when it comes to kind of the subject of the future of work, which is a phrase that’s that’s already come up, is it something that can be easily dissected? And how do you?
00:07:58 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Tackle something like this and talk about it.
00:08:00 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
I think the subject of future work is huge.
00:08:03 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And therefore the way that I have tried to work with this topic, especially in the units that I’m teaching, is through looking at technology. And I think what really interests me when it comes to technology and the and the future of work is that often when we discuss technology and work.
00:08:23 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
We end up talking about platform economy and gig work and then.
00:08:28 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
We end up focusing very much on unequal power relations between the platforms and the workers and workers lacking labor rights because they are not employed by the platform. But what really interests me, though, is a different view of technology, and I think for me this opens up other venues of thinking about.
00:08:48 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Future work so thinking which technologies or how do they mediate life and therefore how do they interfere, Occupy, colonize our private sphere and therefore how how work bleeds constantly into life or how?
00:09:05 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
It is difficult to distinguish upon duty between work and life anymore, but then what is really what comes on top of that for me is issues about the planet and the more proper issues around sustainability. And it is the impact of these technologies that all of a sudden are governing our work, are governing our lives.
00:09:26 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
But they also have a deep impact on on the planet and on the resources of the planet.
00:09:32 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
That’s a pretty complex. Yeah, understandable way to kind of break it.
00:09:35 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Down and look at it, Hugh.
00:09:36 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Your work involves agriculture and and transport. How do you keep updated on these areas and what sort of?
00:09:42 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Developments. Are you really observing?
00:09:44 Dr Huw Thomas
I’ll start with things around transport. When you look at like the impact of of COVID-19 on economic sectors, Civil Aviation and sort of air traffic management has been one of the hard.
00:09:54 Dr Huw Thomas
Hits. I mean, as we’ve seen, obviously COVID-19 meant you know, a lot of our travel plans were cancelled and planes had to be grounded and this led to a lot of staff being laid off, made redundant or put on furlough scheme as we’ve seen in the in the UK and a.
00:10:08 Dr Huw Thomas
Lot of that.
00:10:09 Dr Huw Thomas
Has been covered, but what has been perhaps less covered is around the impact this had on on air traffic control.
00:10:15 Dr Huw Thomas
So they’ve had to kind of keep working during the pandemic because you’ve had repatriation flights, you’ve.
00:10:21 Dr Huw Thomas
Medical supplies, for example, being flown in. So although they’ve had obviously a reduced level of activity, they’re still having to keep that level of operational activity. And So what we’ve seen in in air traffic control has been vast differences in terms of how the organisations have reacted to COVID. So you’ve seen in some cases massive layoffs of staff.
00:10:41 Dr Huw Thomas
In some cases, such significant layoffs of of staff that the remaining staff have been working have had to then go off sick with stress and mental health.
00:10:51 Dr Huw Thomas
In one country, this meant that they then brought in other air traffic control officers to come in to try and take up that slack in demand, which had an impact on safety because these people weren’t as trained to the same standards as they should have been, you know? And so you’ve seen also a reduction number of people being trained up as well. It takes about three years to train up an air traffic control officer.
00:11:11 Dr Huw Thomas
Training has been cut, which means now when you’ve seen this massive increase in flight.
00:11:16 Dr Huw Thomas
They’ve not been able to keep up with that demand and that’s had a a massive impact on service and and and stuff like that as well. So a project that I’ve been part of over the last year or so, which has been involving a number of international trade unions and international professional associations has been looking at can we rethink air traffic management.
00:11:36 Dr Huw Thomas
We’ve shown that traffic control has not been pandemic proof. Is there ways of using COVID to rethink these operations?
00:11:44 Dr Huw Thomas
And as myself and rabbits are the kind of perspective we’re coming from is very much about how we improve people working lives here. If we can. So how do I keep up with those those things? Well, like I said, a lot of it is a lot of my research is driven by working with unions and other organisations. And in a way, what we try and do then is is, is.
00:12:04 Dr Huw Thomas
Academics in the University of Bristol here try and use this research that we’re doing often with policy act.
00:12:08 Dr Huw Thomas
Actors and then try and bring it into the classroom as well. So some of the stuff that we’ve been teaching on the MC and Human resource management, the future of work has been around questions around international employment relations, for example, how these things are, how these organizations are kind of structured, the impact, the COVID that has had on the employment relationship and then try and bring the expertise experiences we’ve had.
00:12:29 Dr Huw Thomas
Into you know how we engage with people like Michaela, for example, and other students on the course. Just a very quick thing on.
00:12:36 Dr Huw Thomas
Torture the massive impact we’ll see at the moment on for agriculture expressions around food shortages that are gonna be are gonna have a massive impact also on on, on cost of living and things like that. But what you’ve also seen I think in agriculture the biggest impact will be climate change and the massive devastation of a lot of plantation crops, for example.
00:12:57 Dr Huw Thomas
Because of climate change and again the the my interest there is then.
00:13:01 Dr Huw Thomas
These workers that depend on these agricultural commodities for their livelihoods, where do they go after this? Well, what other employment opportunities are there? So some of my research now has been looking at this kind of interface between climate change and and work.
00:13:16 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Nicola, just back to you kind of thinking about everything you’ve heard. Does this kind of chime in with your studies and resonate particularly with what you’ve been?
00:13:24 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
On.
00:13:24 Mekhala Laud
Absolutely. In fact, the topics that we have studied are very much in tune with what the research work our professors are doing at the moment and their collaborations with other organizations. Just to give you an example, for use unit we had done.
00:13:44 Mekhala Laud
Game assignment on presenting a report to the Bristol University which would be related to one of the issues that is being projected by the International Labour Organization and how we could as students act as consultants in presenting a report that showcases.
00:14:04 Mekhala Laud
Research based facts on the issues that people are facing in the world of work. Another example which I can give is.
00:14:13 Mekhala Laud
About students taking a stand of either the employer, the worker or an employee representative organization, and this allowed us to gain knowledge about the research from various perspectives, not just from an academic perspective or a theoretical perspective.
00:14:33 Mekhala Laud
But it helped us.
00:14:35 Mekhala Laud
In doing research about the topics you know which are currently the issues of the workers around different organizations, not just in the UK or in the Europe but across the globe. And I think that is something that definitely helps us in gaining a broader view of you.
00:14:54 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Know work. Yeah, it seems like an incredibly.
00:14:56 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Relevant academic area.
00:15:05 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
We’re mixing hue at this point in time. How do you feel about the future of work? Obviously, it’s very nuanced subject, but what are your feelings on how things are looking?
00:15:16
It’s a great.
00:15:16 Dr Huw Thomas
Question what do I feel about it? Well, I mean, I guess you’ve gotta keep these things a little bit upbeat for a for a podcast, but I mean.
00:15:24 Dr Huw Thomas
I mean, if you think about the future of work, I think the the, the looming question around the future of work is going to be.
00:15:29 Dr Huw Thomas
Impact of of climate catastrophe. Basically, I don’t think you can talk about work in in any way without talking about that. And you know the the future of work is something that’s that’s often pitched in in these questions around, you know, either even like robots are gonna take our jobs and we’re gonna have us leisure time and we have to figure out what to do with all this free time that we’re gonna have.
00:15:50 Dr Huw Thomas
And like you said, there’s a lot more nuance to this, and I think a lot of it comes down to.
00:15:54 Dr Huw Thomas
You people have been more agency over this a bit more say over what the future work actually means to them. I just think that the future of work is is something which you need to get a lot more coordination between different countries. I mean a lot of stuff that I’ve looked at, for example, has looked at trying to get even countries to all agree.
00:16:14 Dr Huw Thomas
That something is either a labour right or not a labour right. As many states have tried to promote themselves as being an attractive place and more nationals to come and invest in in their countries, often by relaxing their labour standards, the trade.
00:16:31 Dr Huw Thomas
National Institutions of global governance, the United Nations and and others have found it quite difficult to mediate these different voices of the state, even on simple questions around whether something is a labour right or not. And so obviously, when it comes to the question of what we’re going to do in relation to the climate crisis, I think that would be the real test of whether.
00:16:52 Dr Huw Thomas
Global governance can kind of keep up and actually make a a proper kind of response to some of these problems, but I don’t know. Are you happy?
00:16:59 Dr Huw Thomas
Are.
00:16:59 Dr Huw Thomas
You, you know, are you more optimistic or more pessimistic? Maybe you can make it more upbeat than me.
00:17:05 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
What’s that mean? When when you talked about about the future of work?
00:17:09 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
That you talked about technology on the one hand and then you talk about climate crisis, we’ve got to think these two things together because technology is about the climate crisis and going back again to the unit that I teach and about sustainable planet, I think what is really, really fascinating is that when we, when we think about technology, we really often link it automation or we link it to work.
00:17:31 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And the and the changing work, but don’t we don’t link it to the planet. But if you think about technology, think about your mobile phone. Now think about this call that we are having. It needs Internet.
00:17:41 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Right, but Internet is not immaterial. Internet is physical. Internet needs devices to operate on it. Therefore it needs hardware. It needs software. It also needs cables and those cables that run at the bottom of the ocean. They have impact on the oceanic life. They have impact because they need to be repaired.
00:18:02 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
They have to be maintained. They have impacts, especially on the shallow water and there is military relations and power struggles around those cables, right? So that’s one issue. And then to run software you need data center.
00:18:17 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Data centers produce CO2 because they need cooling, and that cooling happens through air conditioning. They consume a huge amount of water because they are also usually in the places where there is little water, and therefore you have conflicts with local population around public water management.
00:18:37 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And then that also brings us to the issue of the hardware and that for the components of the of the hardware of our mobile phone, of the of the screens and the gadgets that we’re using, they need precious metal. So and this is then the whole business of extraction extractivism how it destroys.
00:18:57 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Planet and how these are finite resources we use more of the cloud which is also linked again to the data centers. I would like to for us to kind of think them to.
00:19:09 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
One of the biggest struggles and I have I have faith in that one is around e-waste and the right to repair it because we use all of this tech that has inbuilt the obsolescence cycle. So therefore it cannot be repaired. Just think that the laptop that we are using now we use it usually for three years.
00:19:29 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Four years. That’s the average life.
00:19:31 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Span. But actually we would need to use it for 20 years to sustain account of of its CO2 emissions.
00:19:38 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Yeah. Well, I feel like there was maybe one positive point in there about the right to repair that we can feel a bit hopeful about and and michella, what about you, do you feel positive about the future of work? How do?
00:19:43 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:49 Mekhala Laud
You think about it, I think so, yes.
00:19:51 Mekhala Laud
Ever since we have been discussing the future of work, the dynamics have changed. But what remains is the hope for building that future, which is sustainable, and I think that is the part where, you know, we can hope that there are going to be actors in the society who will take.
00:20:09 Mekhala Laud
Steps to make things better. I think through courses like these as well, you know, put challenges into the minds of students who will want to then you know, dwell deep into those topics and then identify areas of research which can bring the future of work to be a better place. And also when we transition from.
00:20:30 Mekhala Laud
Non renewable to the renewable energy sources we see work displacement, the places where the work of non renewable energy resources works and the place where the newer energy sources will emerge is going to be different. So people who are working in those sectors will.
00:20:47 Mekhala Laud
Have to shift.
00:20:48 Mekhala Laud
From one geographical area to another geographical area, it brings the loss of work, but it also brings new opportunities for people in different locations.
00:20:58 Dr Huw Thomas
I would say that I’m I’m much more optimistic after hearing Mikala speak actually and if anything, if we had, you know, we had more students like Mikaela, then maybe I’d be more optimistic about the future.
00:21:10 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Yes, definitely.
00:21:12 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Great. And then I guess, yeah, just finally one one piece of advice.
00:21:16 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
From you all.
00:21:17 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
To students kind of considering this course you, we can start with you.
00:21:21 Dr Huw Thomas
My my piece of advice would be be prepared to be challenged. I think the reason why we set up this program was because there wasn’t anything in the UK or specifically designed to tackle some of the major challenges facing the world of work. Basically, there wasn’t anything specifically focused on.
00:21:38 Dr Huw Thomas
And the future of work or the futures of work. And so I think for any students that are considering this program, are interested in in the future of work the way that it’s going to affect their livelihoods going forward, the way it’s gonna affect any employment that they get and and also, as anyone who’s interested in trying to stand in the marketplace, this is a really great program.
00:21:59 Dr Huw Thomas
As a program that, yeah, challenges you on your kind of existing ideas and and.
00:22:04 Dr Huw Thomas
Yes.
00:22:05 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
And Nicola, how about you?
00:22:07 Mekhala Laud
This course definitely would be interesting for students who are interested in shaping the structures or policies at an international level for employment relations. I think this course helps you reimagine the alternatives of work as well. That is something that will be defining.
00:22:27 Mekhala Laud
For the future of work.
00:22:30 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Pizza.
00:22:30 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
If you’re interested in these topics, come and study with us. We’re gonna take you out of your comfort zone and we’re gonna teach you to think, to converse.
00:22:42 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
And to engage from different kind of perspectives that you might not be immediately comfortable with. So if you’re someone who is deeply invested in workers rights, that is absolutely fantastic. But we’re going to also teach you what will be the perspective of the companies and therefore of the businesses of the capital.
00:23:04 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
They will also teach you what will be the perspective of the trend.
00:23:08 Dr Rutvica Andrijasevic
Unions and these three perspectives are different because the priorities are different, but you need to understand all three of them in order to be able to establish dialogue in the workplace and to take your organization forward.
00:23:24 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thank you all so much for your time and such an inspiring conversation. It’s been fascinating to chat with you.
00:23:30 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thanks so much. Cheers guys.
00:23:32 Mekhala Laud
Thank you.
00:23:33 Dr Huw Thomas
Thanks. Bye, bye.
00:23:37 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Thank you for listening to research frontiers from Bristol University. We hope you found inspiration, information, answers and more in all of these great conversations. Don’t forget to check in over at www.bristol.ac.uk/study/postgraduate for more details on Bristol courses and information about Bristol University also.
00:23:56 Ruby Lott-Lavigna
Keep the podcast nearby, subscribe to research frontiers wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and please do share with people who might benefit to you. Thank you for listening to research frontiers.
Leave a Reply